Somewhere Right Now: 07:00 in Palmer AK 🇺🇸 — Big Cabbage Radio

0:10 Speaker 2 as well as I know my palm of my hand but like I say get a little fuzzy around the edge would you from misery and hunger be free come on do your share land a hand and there is power

0:26 Speaker 1 there is power in a band of working folk when we stand hand in hand and that's a power that's a

0:35 Speaker 5 Good morning, dear listeners. It is Thursday, July 30th, 7 a.m. in the morning, and Big Cabbage Radio is broadcasting on the traditional and unceded lands of the Atena and Dene'ina Athabascan peoples. We honor and respect their stewardship of the land in the past and the present. It's time for page two, news that might not make the front page for Thursday, July 30th, 2026. Here's a look at some of the happenings in the Greater Palmer Metroplex for the weekend headed our way. Starting today, the field day at the Matanuska Experiment Farm runs from 2 to 6 p.m. Learn about research at the farm at this free educational event. It includes talks by agricultural researchers and farm tours. Dress for the weather and be prepared to walk up to a mile. All children must be accompanied by an adult and no dogs, please. Find more information on the Matanuska Experiment Farm and Extension Center Facebook page. The Palmer Museum of History and Art welcomes Artist of the Week, Samantha Vetter, tomorrow at 11 a.m. The landscapes, wildlife, and outdoor adventures of Alaska inspire this Palmer-based artist. Come experience her collection and celebrate the beauty of the birds, forests, and wild places of Alaska. Tomorrow brings us one of of the most anticipated musical acts of the summer. The Reverend Peyton and his big damn

2:00 band play at the Muskox Farm. They have been featured in Rolling Stone magazine, have had number one hit records on the Billboard Blues charts, and have been nominated for three Blues Music Awards by the Blues Foundation in Memphis. Wow. We are lucky to have them play here before heading over to Salmon Fest. Matt Hopper and the Roman Candles will open the show. Gates the Muskox farm open at 6 30 p.m and the music starts at 7 get the details at muskoxfarm.org get ready for the palmer ffa live auction on saturday support hard-working students agriculture entrepreneurship craftsmanship and the future of alaskan agriculture auction items include livestock plants woodworking working welding, artwork, and student-built projects by Palmer FFA students. Previews start at 11 a.m. and the live auction begins at noon at Palmer High School Ag Building. All proceeds support the Palmer FFA students and agriculture education opportunities. Come bid. The Hatcher Pass races return on Saturday for the Fleet of Foot Type. These races are a staple in the Alaska running community. They feature an incredible location and an intense elevation gain and loss. For race details, sign up, parking, and start locations, go to the ultrasignup.com website

3:26 and search for Hatcher Pass races. Tom Letson and Ned Gaines play the Hatcher Pass Lodge on Saturday from 4 to 7 p.m. The Eklutna Village Pow Wow and Potlatch runs 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. on on Saturday and Sunday. The theme is Restoring Our River, 97 years later. Join Eklutna Village in celebrating culture and community. Enjoy traditional dance and drum groups, culture and educational vendors, a memorial tent, youth activities, drawings, and great food. Eklutna Village is located at mile 26 of the Glen Highway. Follow the signs to the powwow grounds. More details on the Native Village of Eklutna Powwow Facebook page. The Return of Sunshine shine. Reverend Peyton, a crazy 50 mile foot race and a powwow. That's a recipe for a tasty weekend in anyone's book. Get outside, learn something new, get some live music into your soul and have a most excellent weekend. Have a great day and better tomorrow. Page two airs weekdays at 7 a.m., 9 a.m., 1150 a.m. and 6 p.m. It is also posted on bigcabbageradio.org, Facebook and Nextdoor. Please support Page 2 News and Big Cabbage Radio. Become a member. Donate today at bigcabageradio.org. Keith Pettikolis reported this Page 2 article, and yours truly, Lee Henriksen, produced it. If you have an idea for a Page 2 topic, please email us at page2 at radiofreepalmer.org.

4:56 That's it for today and the news on Page 2 on Thursday, July 30, 2026.

5:03 Speaker 4 I'm Dr. Anthony Leiserwitz, and this is Climate Connections.

5:10 In March 2025, more than a foot of rain fell on parts of South Texas in less than three days.

5:16 Speaker 5 Some communities were flooded and inundated for up to and even longer than a week after the major rain event.

5:22 Speaker 4 Lucas Belluri, a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Arizona, says some of the hardest-hit areas were low-income, largely Latino communities called colonias. Colonias are highly vulnerable to flooding. Many colonias were built in former farmland that was sort of shaped like a bowl to be irrigated from the Rio Grande River. And most colonias lack adequate drainage. So during storms, which are growing more intense as the climate changes, water rushes into these low-lying areas and has nowhere to go. To help highlight the problem, Belluri partnered with community groups to develop a flood mapping tool that combines satellite data with information shared by residents. It shows exactly which areas in the southern tip of Texas were inundated during each of 13 flood events over the past eight years. And it enables people to zoom in, to zoom out, to type in their address. The maps help reveal which areas bear the greatest burden during extreme rain, so people can advocate for solutions to help keep their communities safe. Climate Connections is produced by the Yale Center for Environmental Communication. To learn more about climate change, visit climateconnections.org.

6:32 Speaker 2 Is your car repair more than the car's worth? Think about donating your car to KVRF. Donate it, and we'll pick it up for free. Support public media and support community radio. Call 855-587-3227. That's 855-KVRF-CAR. Or donate securely online at RadioFreePalmer.org. And we'll take care of the rest. Mike Malewski here, Big Cabbage Radio in Palmer, Alaska. No, I'm in California talking to Mayor Cooper, who is in Palmer, Alaska. How are you doing, Mr. Mayor? I am here, and it is an absolute gorgeous day here in Palmer. Okay. What's the temperature? I'm in shirt sleeves. Okay. Say no more. Let's turn to the question of what happened at Tuesday's meeting. meeting. It was a relatively short meeting. There were two assistants from Big Cabbage Radio who were there. It was streamed and the video got to this point about 175 views. So there were people interested. It was a short meeting, an hour and 10 minutes or something like that. It was not a lot on the agenda at all. I think that the more informational part was we had folks from the the Palmer Community Foundation and from the Municipal Planning Organization gave briefs of what's been happening. Those are both very positive organizations doing a lot of good work.

8:01 Any high points that you want to mention about what they had to say? Well, I think for the Palmer Community Foundation, the good part was that they give out money every year. This year is close to, I guess it was over $20,000. But the majority of the people that they give money to are actually, this year, were located in Palmer. And then the Municipal Planning Organization was there to kind of explain what they were, who they service, and to let the folks know that we have four projects in Palmer that are going to be funded and probably will start next spring, four paving projects. Right. And you've been reporting on that at council meetings because you're intimately involved. Are you chair of that group or do you, what's your role with that group? I am a chair. Okay. Now, other than those presentations, did the council take any action during the meeting? We do get tax dollars from Amazon and those kind of groups, mailing groups, if you have a post office box in the city or if you live in the city. Right. So any of those kind of organizations, we already receive tax. But what we haven't been getting tax and stuff from is Airbnb or VRBO or any of those organizations that have rentals that you can rent online and have things delivered to you. And so that was what we had two items. One was an ordinance change that changed the code that we're allowed to do that.

9:28 And the resolution was that we agreed to sign on, if you will, with our organization, which is from the state of Alaska. Ah, okay. Very good. Well, I know in speaking with Director of Finance Gina Davis that that dollar amount is in the neighborhood of a million dollars a year from that. That's pretty impressive. That is. And when you combine that with the sales from online, it becomes more impressive. Yes. Okay. Which is a good thing for the city of Palmer so that we can pave streets and do all that kind of good stuff. Speaking of streets, my understanding is that Evergreen, going across what used to be railroad tracks, has been paved. Is that all open and traffic moving? It is. It was paved. It was striped on Saturday, opened up for traffic and sidewalks on both sides. and it's just we had a one council member talk last night about driving over it and not keep jarring anymore and it also also lowered the grade a little bit so you can see a little bit better as you're coming up and over the hill yeah and that that's open and people are loving it positive comments about that and then our next next road is cedar right of which yeah when i drove by when i drove by this morning it's getting closer to level now so i expect that to be done in a you you know, less than a month. Very good. But yeah, back to Evergreen, we were a month ahead of schedule. Well, yeah, I thought about that. Yes, that seemed to be the case. Wonderful.

10:58 Well, I also have seen pictures. We've continued, we've had people continue to post pictures on a roughly daily basis about the progress being made on the library. And they've been putting a number of horizontal supports up there, I believe. That seems to be moving right along, too. Yeah, I look as I look out the window over the top of the depot, I can see the the peak roof and then the part of the flat roof. And yeah, and it's it's it's moving. I think we're either I think I know we're on schedule. We might even be a little bit ahead of schedule on that one, too. That's going to be it's going to be a very welcome addition to the city of Palmer. I had a brief comment or two with a little conversation with someone who was working there and asked about what was coming next. and they spoke about utilities, plumbing, electrical, and so on, and then the pouring of the base floor before they get to doing sidewalls and enclosing it. But it does seem to be moving right along. It's going to be one of the bigger projects that we've taken on in a long time. Yep, that's true. Mr. Mayor, are there any other things you want to draw people's attention to as they're listening to what's coming up in the next couple weeks here in Palmer? Just for in general stuff, for example, I know the library is having their end-of-the-year function at the depot, 150, 200 people there. It's the culmination of their reading program that they have every year for all the kids and families. I think it's this weekend that the chamber is holding their annual golf tournament. Oh, wonderful.

12:26 I think it actually starts, I think it's actually Friday. And sadder note, for those people who've lived here for a long time, we had a police chief, Russ Boatwright, passed away in 1982, and they're having a celebration. You probably remember Russ. Oh, I do, absolutely. And having a celebration of life for him on Saturday. Okay. But other than that, people need to get out and get around. I mean, it's absolutely gorgeous out. Palmer, Alaska, Alaska at its best. I got it, I got it. And just a few of, well, more than a few weeks, and we'll be seeing the start of the Alaska State Fair. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's another going to be great event. Okay. Mr. Mayor, I want to thank you for taking the time out of your busy morning here and giving a brief summary of what happened on Tuesday's meeting. Stay well, and we'll look forward to the next time in a couple weeks. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that, and you guys enjoy yourself in California. All righty. Take care now. Bye-bye.

13:21 Speaker 4 Hello, fellow funk fans.

13:22 Speaker 3 It's me, Michael B., host and producer of Tonic the Funky Groove Show,

13:27 Speaker 2 where I dive into original vinyl, B-sides, rare cuts, and instrumental tracks

13:32 Speaker 3 from the 1960s to today and from all over the globe. Each week, I bring you the best of instrumental funk, groove, soul, disco, jazz, hip-hop, and more.

13:43 Speaker 2 It happens right here every Thursday afternoon, 1 to 3 p.m. on KVRF Big Cabbage Radio.

13:50 Speaker 3 Catch you then.

17:05 Speaker 5 Hi, I'm Martha Barnett. On A Way With Words, we invite you to talk about the weird and wonderful world of language.

17:12 Speaker 1 And I'm Grant Barrett. Together, we'll solve linguistic mysteries and play word games.

17:18 Speaker 5 You'll get fresh perspectives on pop culture, old sayings, books and writing, regional dialects, word origins, and slang.

17:25 Speaker 3 Tune in to A Way With Words each Wednesday at 9 a.m. on Big Cabbage Radio. See you then!

17:40 Speaker 6 This is Green Street, the environmental health show, greenstreetnews.org, Patty and Doug Wood, and our worldwide network of experts here to help you navigate your way through this increasingly toxic world. Welcome back. When most people think about air pollution, they think of smokestacks, hazy days, smog, diesel exhaust, smoke from fires, emissions from factories, and so on. They don't think about the air inside their homes or apartments. But scientists are beginning to understand that indoor air can be even more toxic than the air outside. Cigarette smoke is a major factor, of course, along with chemical air fresheners, scented laundry products, and other products designed to make things smell a certain way. But what about your kitchen stove? Do you cook with a gas range? If so, you might want to pay close attention to our show today because we'll be talking with a pediatrician pediatrician about how cooking with gas can fill your home or apartment with chemicals that can contaminate your indoor air and cause serious health problems especially for kids that's all coming up on this edition of green street but first some of the headlines of the week patty

18:47 Speaker 3 what do you got for us this week well i have two things but the first one is that a chemical recycling facility which is a pyrolysis plant this is plastic recycling plastic recycling exactly exactly, is shut down after environmental violations. Oh, great. And this is really underscoring chemical recycling's persistent failures. It's just crazy. And this is the second U.S. chemical recycling facility to actually shut down in the past month. Wow. Yeah, that's big. Braven Environmental Plastics Pyrolysis Facility in Zebulon, North Carolina, has been shut down. And an individual on site stated that he had been hired to empty the building and that the facility had been ordered to close by environmental regulators. Staff at the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality confirmed that the Braven facility is not currently operating and referred to public records showing that Braven Environmental retains multiple unresolved violations with the agency. According to the U.S. EPA records from 2021 to 2025, Braven generated over 400 tons of hazardous waste.

19:51 Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, when they burn the plastic, it leaves a really toxic residue. Unbelievable. Way more toxic than...

19:57 Speaker 3 Dioxins and all kinds of really, really hazardous chemicals.

20:00 Speaker 6 So they ship it off to somebody else and say, oh, we recycled the plastic. That's right.

20:04 Speaker 3 Extensive reporting by Carolina Public Press and The Intercept in 2023 documented serious operational problems and hazardous waste management issues at the Zebulon facility, including the accumulation of hundreds of containers of hazardous waste, violations of hazardous waste storage rules, and questions about Braven's ability to safely manage its toxic byproducts.

20:26 Speaker 6 Not to mention the air quality when you burn that stuff.

20:29 Speaker 3 The record of violations and contamination challenges directly undercuts the industry that claims that Braven and similar chemical recycling projects offer safe, scalable solution to plastic waste.

20:41 Speaker 6 It's a myth. It's like clean coal. It ain't going to happen. Unbelievable.

20:45 Speaker 3 So now we have some quotes. Renee Sharp, NRDC's Director of Plastics and Petrochemical Advocacy, says, quote, plastic pyrolysis is an expensive, hazardous, and highly polluting technology that is a form of incineration. It will not help solve our plastics crisis and would only create more harm. The closure of this facility is good news for protecting public health and the environment. And another quote from Judith Anck, who is a president of Beyond Plastics and former EPA regional administrator says, quote, while industry lobbyists are still telling Congress, the EPA, and state legislators that so-called chemical recycling will fix the plastic waste problem, the facilities themselves are rapidly shutting down, stalling, or never getting built in the first place. Every one of these failures is another reminder that the real solution is not risky industry-full solutions like chemical recycling. It's just making less plastic, end quote.

21:38 Speaker 6 Can I just point out that if plastic recycling really worked, it would cut down the amount of plastic we need, which is contrary to what the industry wants. That's right. So, you know, this whole industry push, oh, we can recycle plastic. You've got to wonder how serious they are because that would ruin their market for new plastic. And that's where they make their money is new plastic. Recycling doesn't get them anything.

22:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, but it's all about the money. It's all about the money. And they want to continue making virgin plastic products because that's their off-ramp.

22:08 Speaker 6 Yep. All right. Interesting. I have a piece from last week that I wanted to get to. Last week, the Supreme Court agreed to protect the Bayer Corporation from liability over the popular weed killer Roundup, dealing a victory to the company as it struggles to resolve thousands of costly lawsuits from people who claim the key ingredient glyphosate caused their cancers. answers. The central issue in the case, filed by Missouri resident John Durnell, is whether states have the right to require pesticide labels to carry warnings, or whether a federal law overrides those state claims. Durnell developed non-Hodgkin's lymphoma after years of using the Roundup product and sued because the label did not indicate the danger. In a 7-2 opinion written by Justice Brett Kavanaugh, the court ruled that the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act, or FIFRA, expressly preempts state law and absolves the company of any failure to warn consumers about the dangers of the product.

23:03 Speaker 3 This is insane.

23:04 Speaker 6 I know. This is insane. Bayer argued that a federal law gives the power to approve the label strictly and exclusively to the EPA and not the states. Bayer CEO Bill Anderson said, and I quote, This litigation has enormous costs for the company and has impacted public trust. This decision brings overdue justice on an issue that should have been clarified much earlier. Yeah, I want to know about justice.

23:29 Speaker 3 In fact, public trust, they want the public to trust them that they're using safe ingredients in these herbicides?

23:38 Speaker 6 And what about the people with cancer?

23:39 Speaker 3 What about all those people with cancer?

23:41 Speaker 6 This decision means tens of thousands of people who developed cancer after using the product will not be able to claim the company's libel because it failed to warn them of the danger. And let me just point out that EPA registration of a pesticide does not mean the product is safe. Nope. And the EPA relies 100% on testing provided by the manufacturer. That's right.

24:01 Speaker 3 This is the fox guarding the hen house.

24:03 Speaker 6 Yeah, the manufacturer says, oh, it's safe. And the EPA says, well, okay, I guess it is.

24:07 Speaker 3 And this is just one particular pesticide that we're talking about.

24:11 Speaker 6 I know, but this is a bad one. It's been around.

24:13 Speaker 3 And because it's so ubiquitous.

24:16 Speaker 6 Most popular pesticide on the face of the earth.

24:18 Speaker 3 Well, that's what they use for GMO crops. I know. Although the weeds are becoming resistant, so they're going to an even more toxic herbicide.

24:27 Speaker 6 You can't beat nature. I'm sorry. I know. Do whatever you want. All right, what else you got?

24:33 Speaker 3 Oh, my goodness. Okay, so Food and Water Watch has a very important report, which is extensively annotated, about data centers. We're all thinking about this right now. It's all in the news now. Yep, it's all about AI. They need it, they need it, they need it, right? Yeah, so. So data centers turned to PFAS for cooling data centers rapidly expanding land, water, and electricity footprints are fueling growing backlash, with as many as 7 in 10 Americans saying they wouldn't want a data center in their community. In response to this intense public opposition, many data centers have promised technological fixes in the form of novel liquid cooling systems. Oh, boy, here we go. While liquid cooling systems may reduce, but not eliminate, data center water use, they often rely on dangerous purine polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFOS, which are highly toxic, lab-made chemicals that persist in the environment and harm many systems in the human body. Data centers are poised to increase the use of these forever chemicals just as some other industries are phasing them out.

25:38 Speaker 6 Yeah, we're trying to get rid of them.

25:39 Speaker 3 That's right. The data center industry already relies on PFAS and similar compounds for chip manufacturing and is now turning to the same industry that produced fracking fluids to cool its data centers. In late 2025, the infamous oil field supplier and contractor Halliburton announced a pivot to serving data centers amid slowing global interest in fracking. These linkages between the chemical fracking and data center industries are not new. Major chemical manufacturers like Chemours and 3M already supply both the oil and gas industry and data centers. And major oil corporations themselves are getting involved, like ExxonMobil and Shell, which both have released several new chemicals for use as data center cooling liquids. No stranger to toxic chemistries, the oil and gas industry was an early adopter of PFAS. PFAS are a group of over 15,000 lab-made and long-lived compounds introduced by chemical corporations beginning in the 1940s.

26:40 Speaker 6 Well, you know, they're miracle chemicals, Patty. They do all kinds of miraculous things for manufacturers and for companies.

26:46 Speaker 3 And they never go away. They don't break down in the environment. The company's manufacturing PFAS long hid evidence of the compound's toxic properties and environmental contamination. These same chemical producers are now rushing to repurpose lubricants and transformer oils for the data center liquid market.

27:05 Speaker 6 We talked about this last week. in that book, Inescapable, right? About how you can't get away from these chemicals.

27:11 Speaker 3 President Donald Trump issued an executive order to reduce environmental regulations on data centers and use federal resources to fast-track their permits. And the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency announced plans to just get out of the way of data centers, in part by expediting review of new chemicals used in data center projects. The EPA has even announced plans that would allow oil and gas wastewater water to be used for cooling data centers. PFAS accumulates in the body and impedes neurological functions and behaviors, increases the risk of type 2 diabetes, decreases bone health and density. PFAS have also been demonstrated to cause reproductive harm as well as fetal growth restriction and lower birth weights. Childhood exposure is associated with asthma, the development of hyperthyroidism, and delayed onset puberty. And the EPA has classified two PFAS chemicals as as likely, carcinogens.

28:05 Speaker 6 Two out of the 15,000. Mm-hmm. They're really on top of it, aren't they? Oh, yeah.

28:08 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. To stop potentially irreversible contamination of our bodies and the environment, we need a moratorium on data centers.

28:17 Speaker 6 Holy cow.

28:18 Speaker 3 I'm going to look really hard for good news for next week.

28:21 Speaker 6 Please do.

28:21 Speaker 3 I'm going to look really hard because it's hard to find. Yeah, I know.

28:25 Speaker 6 All right. Thanks, Patty. You're welcome.

28:32 Speaker 3 And now, most people are familiar with the term fracking. It's a process of forcing a mixture of sand, water, and chemicals down into shale formations under extreme pressure to crack the shale open and release tiny bubbles of natural gas that have been trapped there for millions of years. The natural gas that comes up contains a mixture of methane, toxic gases, and water. And after it gets cleaned to remove most of these impurities, it gets sent either to export terminals on the coast to ship overseas, or it goes through more pipelines and into the building where you live, and eventually to the stove where you cook. Your stove is literally the end, or the terminus, of the natural gas pipeline. Stoves leak gas, and gas also escapes during the cooking process, and that unburned gas contains benzene, which is most widely known as a carcinogen that can cause certain leukemias and lymphomas. Unburned gas also contains toluene and xylenes, which are toxic to the nervous system.

29:33 Speaker 6 The reason that we know this is thanks in part to our guest today on Green Street. Dr. Kurt Norgaard is a pediatrician in Minneapolis as well as a fossil gas and health consultant who's published numerous studies on the air quality resulting from burning fossil gas. Patty and I spoke with Dr. Norgaard earlier this week, and we started out talking about how the issue of natural gas comes up in the context of his work with children. Here's our interview with Dr. Kurt Norgaard.

30:01 Speaker 4 What shows up to me most in practice is when we review potential asthma triggers in the home. And when I was practicing in the Boston area, very clear that there are a lot of things in the home environment that were impacting my patients, children with asthma. And nobody really had any idea that cooking with gas might be related to their child's asthma. but we've known since the 70s there's been an association between cooking with gas and childhood asthma and so that I think was really what struck me you know quite considerably is the data been around for a long time we're still learning more we need to learn more but people I mean pediatricians for sure and certainly people who you know who are really struggling with their child's asthma didn't understand that this was a potential trigger

30:52 Speaker 6 in the home mm-hmm Curtis what do you tell the parents of a young child who comes in with asthma and you ask them if they're cooking with gas and turns out that they are then what where's the conversation go from there so I help

31:05 Speaker 4 parents understand you know what does it mean to have a child with asthma and cooking with gas in the home and I think the easiest way to understand it for a parent is that it's like having another trigger in your home so other thing examples would be any kind of smoke or infestation with a mouse or cockroach, very strong smelling chemicals. Those things can all be triggers for a child's asthma in the home. So just given that context and say, well, this is another thing that can be triggering your child's asthma. And there are things that families can do. And even with the most minimal of resources and the the simplest being if you can either use appliances that don't burn fuels or open a window for ventilation, assuming that outdoor air is not worse than the indoor air, which is mostly true.

31:59 Speaker 2 Right, right.

32:00 Speaker 4 And I've also had conversations more broadly, like, well, I mean, they're often kind of shocked to hear this. And usually they really don't want to have anything in the home that might be making their child's asthma worse. Sure. You know, some conversations about cooking with gas, people say like, well, we have to be sensitive. People from other cultures may feel the cooking with a flame is important for their particular cuisine, which I don't disagree with. But it turns out anytime I've talked to people and because I work with like the largest population I work with is children who have either first or second generation immigration immigrants. OK, they don't care if I tell them this based on the science. and my understanding of this as a pediatrician having that stove in your home can be making your child sicker then that's number one priority for them it doesn't matter like they're going to find a way to cook i mean maybe not every time but that's generally what i'm seeing so they they want to get rid of their stove they want to find a way to not have the pollution in the home sometimes you find out there's like a properly working ventilation hood that vents to the outdoor air and you talk to them about using that some are interested in swapping the stove others rent or there's just no finance not financially feasible at the time so we just explore some of those options and try to come up with some solutions not just to point out the problem but actually empower them to make

33:27 Speaker 3 their children healthier so I think that there's a real problem in medical schools where they do not talk about environmental health and you're not required to take courses in environmental health. And yet, you know, the World Health Organization, you know, way back at the beginning of this century said, you know, environmentally mediated illness is going to become a major, major problem. And yet we do not have a medical community that knows to ask. You know, you come in with a kid who's asthmatic, you know, they're taking their medication, they're they're using the inhaler and they wind up in the emergency room anyway. And does anybody ask, did you put a new carpet in your kid's room? Is there an educational component about these things in the medical world, especially among pediatricians? Yeah. So this anecdotally, I think

34:20 Speaker 4 is changing for pulmonologists. So general pediatricians, I don't think so. I think if If you are in a very busy primary care practice, you may be, hopefully, every time you're asking about triggers in the home, but maybe not, and you're doing the medical management. But I think pediatricians are fairly well-attuned to think about the home environment. But again, that's often we're taught, what we are taught to ask about is exposure to cigarette smoke, and then sometimes we're, you know, maybe you picked up the infestations and maybe even the candles. But no, nobody's educating pediatricians on the impacts of cooking with gas. Pulmonologists, on the other hand, I have seen firsthand. I had a conversation with a pulmonologist maybe almost 10 years ago who at the time expressed some skepticism about the impact of cooking with gas. And then after that, several years later, then she's publishing commentaries on how we need to do more to improve indoor air quality, including reduce emissions from cooking with gas. And in my own practice, the pulmonologist that I work with most closely, no question, she is very thoughtful of the home environment and environmental impacts on asthma. Again, probably allergists and pulmonologists are doing that consistently. And this goes back to what I said earlier. The data have been accumulating since the 70s, and they haven't made their way through the medical world yet.

35:50 Speaker 6 You mentioned exhaust fans as a mediating force here. Have you done any investigation as to how effective that can be?

35:58 Speaker 4 Not myself, but people study how frequently people use them, and when you do use them, how effective are they at capturing the pollution? And not only that, but actually the ranges themselves, they're not uniform. So different brands, models, they actually have different airflow. They actually capture air pollution differently. So if you have a strong enough one and you use it consistently, it might capture enough to prevent really bad spikes in the pollution if you use it consistently.

36:30 Speaker 3 So this has to be more broadly disseminated, this whole idea of gas stoves. I mean, we've heard about it. we've talked about it we know that it is a very common indoor air quality issue but it's just not getting the attention that it needs well I agree which is part

36:50 Speaker 4 of why I've done research and community science based work on the topic to try and improve understanding of the problem yeah but it'll take time well that's been

37:03 Speaker 3 been 50 years. I mean, if we have studies from the 70s, we're talking 50 years, Curtis. That's

37:11 Speaker 4 a long time. Well, I see your point. We could stand to make faster progress. That's true. But there are some pretty substantial challenges, of course, as I'm sure you're aware of. You know,

37:21 Speaker 6 the way we're going to get the word out is not only through programs like ours, but piggybacking with groups that already have you know they've got a network of people and they can send out information i mean clearly we have a very serious problem here and people i understand not everybody wants to know about it because it's an inconvenient truth right we have a gas stove downstairs we got it not that long ago you know we always make sure the exhaust fan is on but as you point out the stove leaks gas even when you're not using it even when it's off yeah right you know and the other

37:56 Speaker 4 thing i tell people you know when we're often going in the home and measuring the air quality impacts of the gas stove and i tell them if you vented it perfectly outdoors then you inside your home you came up with a good solution then you just put all the pollution outside in your neighborhood you know yeah not that it's like a huge pollution source but you know philosophically that's what you're doing you're just saying i'm going to just make sure i'm not affected anymore

38:19 Speaker 6 and then it's all going to go out somebody else's problem right exactly yeah i get it i get it yeah

38:26 Speaker 3 You know, I think more people would be concerned about this if they knew that there was also an issue of carcinogenic chemicals that are coming out of this, not just for asthmatics that were doing this work, right? We're talking about all the other chemicals that are found, especially in fracked gas, which is mostly what we're using for our stoves today, right?

38:49 Speaker 4 Right. Well, I would say the cancer causing chemicals, it's a relatively understudied aspect of gas dove emissions. So they're very, very subtle, like pieces of evidence from a handful of studies over many years. And it's only more recently that we've started to actually collect data on this. So I don't blame them. You know, like for medicine, we have to make decisions based on solid evidence. And so for like one or two studies to come out, we're still accumulating evidence but what i would expect is that we should be doing more research on that issue and really trying to understand the source which is i think up to this point what's been done studies looking at gas stoves as a source of cancer causing chemicals and looking at how people are exposed to them and then looking at whether there's evidence of a relationship between having those chemicals in the home coming from your stove and risks of cancer answer. So it's a long scientific process. Yeah, yeah, I know. But there's a whole lot of research

39:50 Speaker 3 that's already been done on the chemicals themselves, like benzene and toluene and so on that are coming out of these stoves. So we have that research. So, you know, if we were in another country, say the European Union, they would be applying the precautionary principle at this point and saying when there's an indication of harm, right, based on some scientific evidence out there that you know that we should take precautions even without scientific certainty let me phrase

40:19 Speaker 6 the question like this yeah the natural gas industry is not going to be happy with research being done that says that their product is harming kids and especially exacerbating asthma symptoms do you sense or do you know of any pushback from the natural gas industry about that are they having studies coming out and saying oh it's really not as much of a problem as you think

40:39 Speaker 4 Oh, sure. So you can look up one of the studies I was involved with. The first one to measure chemicals in the gas itself going to people's stoves. That came out a few years ago. And there was a response to that, a rebuttal, and that was from Scientists for Hire, if I could say that. Yeah. I don't know. I'm sure they don't see themselves as that, but it's a research institute or center that is often hired by industry to publish against, you know, these kind of messages or findings.

41:15 Speaker 3 They impact their bottom line.

41:17 Speaker 4 Well, that's effectively what's going on. Yeah. And we're not the only ones that have had this happen to us. In fact, that permit appeal that Phil Endrigan and I were both a part of, this same organization was hired to defend the gas company. And I'm not talking about, when I say gas company, this is not like a little local utility. That gas company was like one of the biggest pipeline companies in North America. It's a huge company from Canada. So they went to this same company that wrote the rebuttal against the paper we published on gas coming from, like the composition of gas in people's stoves. And then there's other, you know, great investigative journalism work looking at what the industry has done over decades, and there's no doubt, I mean, it's very clear from those journalistic reporting that the industry wants to use the gas stove as a hook for people to stay connected to natural gas service.

42:14 Speaker 6 So, knowing what you know, are you optimistic about where you see this headed in the next few years?

42:22 Speaker 4 Well, that's a challenging question because I just focus on what's the next work I can do? What's the next thing I can apply myself to? And whatever I'm doing that I think can make the most difference. Whether it does or not, I have to wait and see. But I do think it makes, you know, the research, the advocacy, the policy work, the communications. over many many years there's no doubt the work that myself and the people I've had the great fortune to work with over that you know 10 plus years the work we're all doing is making a difference and so that part keeps me going besides the fact that I just love doing it it's super interesting work and really rewarding I meet and work with great people and yeah once you've stuck with it for a while you look back and say yeah that made a difference is it the difference we need? Probably not. But is it the best that I could do? Maybe. Yeah. It's just, it's just sad

43:18 Speaker 3 for us to see how little we value our children compared to how we value keeping businesses

43:26 Speaker 4 making billions of dollars. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess there are a lot of different ways you could think about that one. Sometimes I think about the power dynamics and industries are very powerful and do a lot to make sure things work out the way they want them to and you know nobody intends I think well generally intend not intending to do the wrong thing yeah but they don't make the right choice for various reasons right you can see they're they're misinformed would be another thing you know there but that's the thing you know other people would say well they're just lazy they didn't bother to go look up figure out what how to make the right decision well you know there are a lot of different ways of looking at it so and

44:09 Speaker 6 And I'm sure the natural gas people would say, well, Dr. Norgard, there's, you know, many things that cause asthma and you can't tease out the stove and say that it was our, you know, it was the natural gas that caused this problem, right?

44:20 Speaker 4 Well, I think you're characterizing that accurately in that that's what the industry would say. Or, you know, when we do say, well, these are chemicals we found in gas, even to just state that, that's very triggering. And they'll come back and say, well, you didn't prove that those made anyone sick. Well, we actually didn't say that. This particular study was just saying these are the chemicals we found. And asthma is multifactorial. There's no question about it. A lot of things play into asthma. But no, we can actually, with properly done studies, you can figure that out. Is the pollution from cooking with gas playing a role for increasing children's risk of asthma? Yeah, you can, and that's been done, and it does. And it's probably the same pollutants inside the home that are causing the problem as the ones outside the home, because really, for pediatric asthma, we see the same thing. That nitrogen dioxide pollution that's produced in significant quantities from cooking with gas, that's linked to childhood an asthma whether it's coming from your stove or it's outside coming from other sources but

45:27 Speaker 3 you're absolutely right to think that the kitchen is kind of the heart of the home everybody spends

45:32 Speaker 6 a lot of time in a kitchen and i don't know we do that's for sure is there anything that you wanted

45:37 Speaker 4 to say that we didn't say well just to make the point cooking with gas is one of the single largest sources of air pollution in the home for people who don't smoke in the home and that pollution is it's a real health risk and so you can do something for your health and the climate

45:55 Speaker 6 by swapping out your gas stove to induction or electric dr kurt norgaard scientist pediatrician and one of the world's leading experts on how gas stoves are impacting our lives you can learn more about dr norgaard at our program website greenstreetnews.org where you'll also find links to our new youtube channel with lots of our past shows to share with friends and family that's going to do it for our show today. Many thanks to Dr. Kurt Norgard and all of you who listen to and support this show. Patty and I will be back next week with another edition of Green Street. Thanks for listening.

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56:01 Speaker 2 Glacier View weather.

56:05 Speaker 1 Good morning, Big Cabbage Radio friends, and good morning, Mike, and good morning, Russell. Good morning! Here in Glacier View, home of the mighty Matanuska Glacier. Down at the river, it's 44 degrees Fahrenheit, and up on the bench, it's 50 degrees Fahrenheit. 44 degrees Fahrenheit in Celsius is 6.7. 50 degrees in Fahrenheit up on the bench is 10 degrees. Chance of precipitation, I have written down today as 0, 0, 0, 0. Now, that's because today, tomorrow, next day, and the next day, we'll have no rain. Now, given that I've just said 0, 0, 0, 0, that's very low chance. It's already rained 0.01 inches of rain. So, Russell, can you help me understand science? We'll send you a memo. Send me a memo. Yesterday's high was 72 degrees, and the low was 44. Barometer has sparked up to 30.04. So it's above 30, and that generally means what, Russell?

57:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no rain.

57:19 Speaker 1 Yes, no rain. We hope, except that it rained. Winds 1 mph, sunrise 514, setting at 1039 For 17 hours, 24 minutes of sunshine We have high overcast clouds With little bits of blue peeking through You know, maybe 10 or 15% of the sky is blue I think a lot of it's going to burn off I think we're going to have a bright, sunny day here And a sunny weekend Some overcast clouds, some clouds clouds, but it's going to be fairly sunny weekend in Glacier View. Moon, 99% brightness as it's waning dimmest. And everybody's 51 or 52 degrees or so in the neighborhood, including, except for Anchorage. Anchorage is up to 57. But it's a pretty mellow, warm day here in the neighborhood. And Costco Corner, what's it, did it rain last night, Russell?

58:16 Speaker 2 It did not rain here last night. I think I left the cover off the barbecue, so I'm safe. So, David and Russell, David, Joseph, Russell, you keep talking about rain. What's that? What is rain? rain. Well, for those of you who are in hotter climates down in the lower latitudes, it's this thing that falls from the sky and makes the grass grow. Oh, okay. That's bird droppings. I mean,

59:00 I'm trying to remember. I seem to remember somewhere in my past. It's like water, isn't it?

59:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. But it's been 75 degrees and water, water, Mike's lawn.

59:15 Speaker 2 Okay. Gentlemen, I really appreciate your sharing your information and being reminding me that in some places there's rain and in some places there's not rain. And we just don't happen to be having rain here in the Santa Cruz area, particularly in the mountains in California. But I'll be back. I'm coming back so that I can experience rain as well.

59:40 Speaker 1 Any other news, Russell?

59:42 Speaker 2 58 degrees at Costco Corner, and it's going to be a gorgeous day. All right. Gentlemen, enjoy. Listeners, enjoy wherever you are. Here we go. Glacier View weather.

59:58 Speaker 1 Okay.